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'Solid resource' found as prospecting company uncovers high grade gold deposit

From Stuff.co.nz today

‘Solid resource’ found as prospecting company uncovers high grade gold deposit

A massive find of quality gold has launched a century-old mine into the ranks of the world’s best.

New Talisman Gold Mines prospecting at the Karangahake Gorge near Paeroa has turned up high levels of gold from the Dubbo deeps said chief executive Matthew Hill.

“The Dubbo resource has lifted by 102 per cent and we have now essentially got a significantly higher amount of gold just in Dubbo with further modules to come out in the next month or so,” Hill said.

The Dubbo zone is one of several sections of the 35-kilometre network of mine tagged for bulk sampling during a feasibility.

If full-scale mining goes ahead, Hill expects the small volume mine to produce “very high” gold grades.
“Certainly from a grade position alone, it ranks us well up there in the top 10 in the world,” he said.
New Talisman entered the mine in May on a three year prospecting and bulk sampling dig.

More than a year ago, the company acquired data that gave them a better look at what was on offer in the depths of the 700 vertical metre mine inside Karangahake mountain.

It’s a world-class asset and Hill said there is a significant amount of ore remaining at depth. Full-scale mining won’t go ahead until a feasibility study is done but indications are positive.

“From an economical viewpoint, certainly at this stage, it is looking like a very solid resource,” Hill said.

“The winds as they are travelling at the moment, I would suggest it is looking very positive for our ability to turn this highly productive gold mine, historically, and take it back to what it once was.”

The company has a 25-year mining permit and is preparing the site for bulk sampling. Consents allow for the extracting of 20,000 cubic metres of ore each year.

The current gold price of $1618 per ounce will provide significant long-term investment and employment opportunities, Hill said.

  • Stuff
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Karangahake was always a good grade - far better than Waihi is in modern times.

The erection of the furnace commenced in July 1885 on a site opposite the Karangahake township and just downstream from the present “Gold Camp”. A 95% recovery rate was claimed for this process, but because of the high percentage of silica in the ore, the process was unsatisfactory. The ores that had been treated overseas in La Monte furnaces, contained a good deal of base metals, but because the Karangahake ore lacked this, a lot of flux had to be used to make the slag run freely. Only 38 tons of ore was treated, which returned 600 oz of bullion, but the cost of smeltering was about $26.50 per ton. The cost of flux was the downfall of the process, and the furnace was not used again.

KARANGAHAKE the years of the gold 1875 -1935

Could be wrong but by my calculations that gives 0.05% per tonne.

Past Waihi Mine gave:
0.0014% Au
0.009% Ag

The Silver pays for costs, the Gold is the profit.

One of the new Waihi digs (much deeper) is expected to give 0.6%
The difference is dirt at Wahi is easier to move & process on a large scale than the quartz at Karanaghake.
source

Some of the best Coromandel mines produced up to 2% returns!
I know of someone that still mines one of them.
source

The mines of Coromandel always facsinated me, even as a child when I saw some samples which were totaly unbelievable.
I am well aware that the development of these mines bring jobs and a degree of wealth to the local economy, engineers, machinery/plant suppliers and contractors but where dies the real wealth go, the gold that forms the profit of the venture. At the end of the day 'He who holds the gold holds the wealth’
The gold mines should be run by the state, just as the state owned coal mines. Enough silver and gold sold to pay for the wages and costs and the remainder stockpiled as a hedge against global financial fluctuations and collapse.

They should not be owned by the state.
They need to be set up as a trust that all nz born citizens are the beneficiary, and they pay out annually. That way the government of the day can’t flog it off to get some quick cash flow.

Yes and no - in my opinion owned by the State but I see where you are coming from and I do agree largely as it could be i n the form of a Trust. When I refer to the State I refer to it in the manner that the people are and own the State and the Politicians are their servants - no more - no less.
The entire shmozzle would be performance managed so that those who managed were paid according to how they managed and the performance of the State owned enterprise would dictate any bonus they were paid.

As it is now it might effectively be said that the International bankers own the minerals and especially gold and silver and the politicians and their puppets. We are being sucked in - all the gullible sheepies that some of us are. Led to believe that mining is good for US - like hell it is. It is only good for limited local economy, those employeed, contractors and suppliers - and they would all get the same if the State owned it PLUS the profit int he form of the gold, silver etc would be owned by the people.

1 Like

“The gold mines should be run by the state, just as the state owned coal mines”- Look how well that went when Solid Energy went into voluntary administration.

I do have to agree with you whereby if one had to choose between a mining asset being state owned or put into some quasi public trust advocated above Id be inclined to go state owned. You know my thoughts on state owned mining from previous topics.

@ GoldPandemic -The thought of a mine owned by a trust for NZ born citizens interests me though. Why only NZ born citizens?. What about NZ citizens not born in this country?
Your idea- Is this a compulsory trust for its said victims or is it voluntary?
If it is not state owned as you have stipulated how is it financed and who pays for the large cost of capital before the mine is profitable?
Who pays for the years that it is not profitable?

Many regards

Yes and you know my thoughts and my thoughts are those of a loyal 100 percent kiwi descended from the first people here and later from whalers and miners. A person old enough to have watched the International bankers trick us into borrowing money under a Fractional Reserve Banking system effectively bankrupting us and then, for lack of a better term ‘foreclosing the mortgage’ leading to the citizens losing their rights and slowly taking over the government even to the extent of manipulating their puppets in as Prime Minister to force their will…firstly Brash (a money man) and then Key (another money man)
One day you might wake up
Maybe New Zealand citizens born in other countries???
Let me assure you that I more than agree with goldpandemic. Key and co want new citizens partially because those New Citizens will vote for the hand that feeds them and these people have no idea what this country is about.
Key needed them for support in such matters as changing the flag…an act of treason. To change our flag was to enable Key to change the constitution and that would have been in favour of the International Bankers and you would have less rights. That man is NOT a New Zealander in my opinion…he may gave been born here but he was the son if an English immigrant and an Austrian Jewess I understand and here he attempted to change the flag that our servicemen swore allegiance to, died under and which now represents those lives sacrificed…but what do new New Zealanders know if this - nothing. Due to his parentage what loyalty did he have - his attempt to change the flag shows he had NO loyalty to New Zealand and those who served under the flag - and died under it banner.
As for State owned mining. I am all for State owned enterprises belonging to the citizens. They also need to be operated properly. If I can find the report calling for the prosecution of the Minister of mining, Key, other key figures and the International bankers you so love as you are happy to see them get our gold, then I shall place it here. It implicates them for the failure of Pike River and holds them responsible for the deaths.
Mr Pandemic is on the right track.
To me it seems apparent that you cant think out of the square and seem to be happy with the way the world is going. Paper money is worthless…you can bring a country to its knees over night with paper money but if they have gold reserves you cannot because even though we are not based on a gold system any more thanks to the manipulation of the bankers, gold is still recognized by other countries as a more stable and worthwhile commodity. He who holds the gold holds the aces, holds the power and has the key to future prosperity.

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Okay Solid Energy ran into trouble because coal price bottomed out. Also Chinese economy slowed - they burn lots of coal for power generation, they needed less.

If it was not nz born citizens, then immigrants could come in and get those profits, that’s not fair. They might still do this for their children born here, but that is more acceptable.
Immigration is way out of whack, I don’t like the numbers that are coming in nor the imbalanced amount - it’s not creating cultural diversity, it’s creating immigrant communitys - they don’t integrate, that don’t have to - there are enough of them that they can just keep their own culture. [sorry bit of a rant] You see it with greek & indian communities in Australia they are extremely traditional with their clothing & celebrations WHILE their home countries have adopted western clothing and customs, it’s mad. Then there is major conflict between the immigrant parents and their children who integrate and want to be like thier australian friends.
I don’t care if it’s 1 million chinese or Canadians. 1 million or any large number from any culture is going to cause cultural conflict. It took ages for Europeans to finally come around to Maori culture in this country - there were too many European immigrants, lets not do that again.
I’ve seen how easy it is for immigrants to get in on a skilled migrant visa - only to be working as a petrol station manager! Much of it is corruptable, that job could have better gone to a refugee immigrant in need or someone on the dole.

Well if it’s state owned trust and not making any money, it’s a loss on the government books. But it is keeping new zealanders employed, especially in an isolated community where jobs can be difficult to come by. You can fund people via WINZ or by proping up a state owned enterprise, that helps to fund a whole community. That would only be needed while it adapts to economic changes. And we should not be mining coal to sell it for burning. We need to add value to coal here in our country, do R&D with it, R&D creates high tech employment for uni students & graduates(we certainly need some high tech jobs - even the governments admit this) This will also create new industies adding value here in nz, employing citizens. More R&D for a high tech economy, that can curtail the braindrain.
At the end of the day, mined coal has a value, coal in the ground does not. If it costs $1 to mine 1 tonne of coal, and it sits in a storage pit for 10 years, I guarantee you it will be of higher value at a later date when it costs $5 to mine 1 tonne of coal.

It’s the same for our whole economy we sell basic resources, they’re limited, they will run low.
We sell raw milk powder, we need to sell the final packaged milk brand. We need to have our own internationally known casein body builder brand.
We need to carve our wood here, have a carving school, become internationally known for it.
I know it’s a small industy, but it’s a start, it diversifies our wood industry, creates local jobs.
We could build native timber boats (never export the raw product), we’d have an internationally renouned product, only available from here, want a Kauri decked boat - have to get it made in nz.
We are recognised for our quality resources, let capitalise on that, lets be also known for our high quality products. We’ve done it with honey products.
Lets tin our fruit here, make juices/concentrates, dried fruit, jams etc.
We have a stack of Iron ore, even Titanium ore. Why aren’t we constructing ships, it would certainly save on the cost that we fork out for our Australian or Korean made frigates (the cost seems to be constantly complained about even when we made a few in Whangarei).
Tiwai Point smelters are on the way out - lets buy it, upgrade them for steel production, the hydrodam has a surplus of electricity for a good price.

Currently if a natural resource floods the market, or our dollar spikes we are in the shit.
Over production of milk caused this recently, before that our dollar spiked, our fruit exporters were having a very tough time.

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Solid Energy ran into trouble because it was trying hard to diversify its core business. It created side projects namely in lignite conversion such as creating fertilizers and liquid fuels from its reserves down in Southland.

This required huge amounts of capital to setup, research and run which ultimately created a drain on its balance sheets. NZ export market for coal was mainly west coast coal which it sold overseas not so much for power generation but for steel and other metal production. The steel industry was highly saturated at the time with an excess of supply and a slowing of demand particularly in the Chinese and Middle Eastern markets ( mainly Dubai and Abu Dabi construction boom) . This did lead to a drop in the coal commodity price.

We are now seeing a downward trend in coal fired power production and a corresponding boom in renewable energy production particularly out of China. The writing is on the wall for coal as a primary source of electricity generation. This is due to its affects on air quality and as a green house gas.

The use of coal outside of power steel and methane production is limited. The type of coal NZ produces does not lend itself to methane production as well as some of the lower more bituminous coals found around the world. I therefore disagree with you mined coal has value. Quite the opposite it has a cost.

The use of coal for carbon fiber production is done a lot more efficiently by the use of crude oil distillates and hydrocarbon gases. The future of coal is a dying industry long term . That’s not to say it is going to not be continued to mine but it will become less and less. The world is moving towards a lower carbon economy and for good reason due to its affect on the environment.

I just dont see a market for coal. I can think of other industries my tax payer money would be better spent on than investing in coal R&D…

Your idea of using Tiwai as a steel production facility needs to be examined. I disagree it should be bought by the state. Its setup primarily as a smelter for aluminium.The reasons I believe this is a bad idea is below:

    • Retrofitting it to produce steel would be an astronomical price. The setup for aluminum production is a completely different process to steel production. Modern steel production uses a process called the Hisarna process this is completely different to the smelting of bauxite.
  1. The pollution it creates. With the large amount of Carbon and Sulfur dioxides this has to be managed. It costs a lot of money to sequester these compounds. There is also the slag to dispose of which can contain toxic heavy metals.
  2. Financial viability- Our cost of labor , regulations and the distance from markets are high. This drives up the cost of steel produced. At the moment the global steel market has an excess of supply and there are countries with less environmental, and labor regulations than NZ which make it cheaper to produce this type of manufacturing. This is precisely why the Aluminium smelter is closing down at Tiwai. Its no longer competitive.

Your point around the immigrant communities not integrating into the host country communities is a great example of why it is a bad idea for your so called NZ born citizen owned gold mine to be a failure on this important social issue you have raised. Would this not create an even bigger divide for immigrants coming into this country and becoming NZ citizens and for them not to become owners of this trust? This is a great way to create an even bigger gap that you so passionately detest.

The reality of the situation is NZ needs migrants other wise our economy would start grinding to a halt. While I agree the current process for letting in immigrants needs to be reviewed.
Look at all of the dairy farmers that cannot get NZ labor to work on there farms. That’s why we need immigrant workers to help. NZers dont want to do it
Fruit pickers is another prime example - Every year in Central Otago huge numbers of immigrant workers come in a pick fruit- why because NZers dont want to do it.
Christchurch rebuild - Required huge numbers of immigrants.
I could go on but you see my point.

The reality is we all like to moan and bitch about immigrants but the ironic thing is we have some of the best standards of living in this world. The dirty little secret is this…These immigrants we bring into this country have actually helped create some of that said wealth.

This brings me to my final point- I agree with you about creating niche industries. I think its a great idea. NZ has some unique products that need to be marketed and ensure its intellectual property is protected to only this country. The example of manuka honey is an excellent example. NZ does need to invest more in R&D so as to create value added products and new industries. I would rather my money is spent developing these industries which allow our economy to become more high tech and diversified than plowing money into a state owned mine or NZ born citizen owned mine trust. There is only so much money in the pot. Mining is relativity low tech and carries with it huge capital cost and and a high risk. Its also a finite resource.
Sustainable industries ( your wood carving is a good example) are what is needed. And what I mean by this is not some hippie idealist environmental idea but more we need industries that are efficient, have high margins and have the ability to diversify its product chain and add value along its commodity pathway. A great example of this is industries like the IT, medical science,high tech engineering, value added food products, tourism industries etc.

Kind Regards

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I think you have suffered the government propaganda to think that we need these immigrants. I live for weeks on end in Auckland and they are BAD news by and large. Especially in the housing market where a good friend of mine has attended many local home auctions - good Kiwis needing homes can only bid to aroung the $850,000 mark (Hillcrest) and when they give up Asians then bid each other up to $1.6m
New Zealand first in my opinion. You wait until they are on your doorstep then you will sing another tune!
In Bentley Ave Glenfield not one but four home sales saw the same Asian purchase all four homes!
And you think we need immigrants!!!
I have to admit that the Indians integrate well into our society and make a valuable contribution but many of the wealthier Chinese I have seen are arrogant and do not seem to wish to integrate but are very aloof, keeping within their own communities and seemingly treating other non Asians as trash.

Why do dairy farmers choose immigrant labour - because it is CHEAP. Because they want to make a killing and not pay fair remuneration for the work done - thats why. Did you notice the TV news article about seasonal workers around Blenheim complaining that the Vineyard industry refuses to employ them even though they WANT to work because they can bring in cheap labour from off shore.
I know people who would love the summer jobs fruit picking but once again foreign seasonal workers are employed because the orchardists find them more economical…its all about money…and greed.

As for New Zealand owned gold mines - it all comes down to management. If you want to see success then look at Ngai Tahu who have turned $700m into $1.5 billion in a variety of enterprises - WHY? MANAGEMENT is the answer. The manner in which an operation is run.

I agree with you re Tiwai point as it cannot be turned into a Steel Mill without many alterations and changes as the manufacturing processes are different. Interesting ton ote as a side line that New Zealands largest Bessemer Furnace was in green Island out of Dunedin and the Otago Iron Rolling Mills is ample proof that when run properly an industry in New Zealand can not only succeed but flourish…and in New Zealand hands and with the right management so to could the hard rock gold mining industry such as Macraes. There are areas in new Zealand where NO ONE could succeed, Kiwi owned or foreign due to the fractured character of the reef systems, where, although a rich reef might be discovered, after a few hundred meters it pinches out or is lost by faulting. Macraes and areas of the Coromandel should be NZ owned and operated as the gold reserves are known and proven.

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These so called international bankers you speak of with such disdain - Which companies/organisations are you referring to? At the moment you have all the right “sound bits” but the actual facts are somewhat lacking.

The reality is we need banks and that includes access to foreign capital ie international money. Im assuming there is an international banker that helps with that good for them- so far I dont see the issue.

The role of the international banker buying gold- I dont really care where my gold goes as long as I sell it and get the money for for it- So far no issue from me.

Love them or hate them banks are what is needed in any economy. They provide a source of capital which allows people to buy and build houses, go on holiday, businesses to buy equipment, expand and become competitive. The cost of providing that capital is captured by way of interest rates. Last time I checked I wasn’t tricked into borrowing money. I made a conscience decision to borrow money to buy my house- So far I dont see an issue.

Your point around a country being bought to its knees overnight with paper money. Explain how that process works. Im assuming if these so called creditors you speak so disdainfully about actually “called” back the money that has been loaned out. The problem with that is these so called creditors aren’t getting any interest on their money they have now loaned out. This makes their business suddenly non profitable. Why would they do this?

Im assuming with your discontent of international bankers you dont have a bank account, dont have a mortgage or credit card and keep all of your money under the bed. Oh and dont say you bank with a co op bank like SBS or kiwi bank as the reality of the situation is there whole existence is based on international bankers lending them money.

The problem I have is you say I dont think outside the square… Im more than happy being in the square until someone gives me some type of credible peer reviewed evidence that allows me to make a logical decision to move into another square. Thats how progress is made not on emotion and half baked ideas but on logical rational points of view not half baked conspiratory theory marketing “sound bits” that play on people fears. We as people deserve better than being sucked into this fear based propaganda. We need to be driven on making decisions particularly around our economy(as an example) based on evidence and best practice.

BTW I agree with you on the flag stuff and pike river

Kind Regards

I refer to the International banks of which the Federal reserve, your friends the Rothschilds who I understand have a big say in where the Macraers gold goes.
Do I need to be like you and quote facts and figures in order to attempt to prove a point?
Paper money can collapse - it is surely manipulated. It is created out of thin air without anything to support it - Obama needed to borrow 700 Billion and so he prints bonds which give the Federal Reserve pro gratis permission to print money. Nothing backs it up. As easily as it is created it can collapse. My family learnt this in the very late 1890s when the fortune they made in New Zealand mining, all in the hands of the bank, was lost when the financial system collapsed in a depression. I am not sure what year. I do know however that had my family retained physical gold then they would have been winners and seen that period of financial collapse through. What can apply to a family can also apply to a country…and those who own the paper money know that - THAT is why THEY want YOUR and our gold!
Any way I simply cannot understand where you are coming from in your apparent desire to see New Zealand sinks into economic gloom and loose the only commodity that has more power than pieces of paper - precious metals.
You can sell your gold to anyone whom you want to - I dont give a stuff - because the value of the gold remains here and assuredly you will use it to buy assets or better yourself BUT when Macraes allows the gold to go out of the country NOTHING remains here. If I had my way you could only sell your gold to the government who would stock pile it as a hedge toward monetary collapse.
You work on what you read obviously and the figures that are presented to you. What decisions do you come to when you find two different sets of figures relating to the same goal? I think I look logically and carefully at the wider implications while you immerse yourself in facts and figures without due consideration tot he long term - just my thoughts.

You are also beginning to bring ridiculous analogies into the equation. What has it got to do with your house and the money you borrowed to buy it. Yes I did that to…dont we all… you cannot use this as an analogy for International Banking under a Fractional Reserve system because if you borrowed money under that criminal system you would now be living in a tent and THAT is the system New Zealand borrowed money to create the Welfare State and THAT is also why OUR gold goes off shore now.
You mentioned Conspiracy theories? Maybe the ‘Truth that you are fed is the lie and within the bounds of the Conspiracy theories lies the truth’ - my quote.
Quite honestly I think your an incredibly intelligent guy who can quote facts, figures and fallacies but one who walks around with blinkers on in some regards.
As far as I am concerned end of the topic - you know my views but I am a true blue kiwi and here for the good of my country and the people in it - New Zealand first! (Even if I havent voted for them)

Have a great day.

Solid Energy never should have invested stacks of money into research. That should be a small and varied R&D done by universities - lower cost, lower risk, or a specialist govenment enterprise similar to what the original Department of Scientific and Industrial Research used to be, now it focused on Environmental research, no help to our economy. Solid Energy should have begun scaling down, until they had more of a viable value added commodity.

  1. The current alumium* smelters are old and need to be renewed, or scrapped. Also why import Bauxite from Australia, when we have varied natural resources right here in the land and seabeds. There will be some similar facilities that could be adapted. The main advantage of refitting Tiwai Point is the cheap hydro electric power - only other use for power would be to lower the national power price, not bad for us, though not good for the power companies books - unless people increase their power use as a result, possibly.

  2. Currently the Glenbrook Steel Mill has a lot of waste slag, a large component of this is Titanium. Presently there are several universities studing new cost effective methods for extract this valuable resource.
    We can produce steel cheaply for our local market, and value adding industries. Certainly beats the worries over fraudulent steel coming out of China.

We could possibly also keep a portion of the Alumium* smelter going for local recycling.

  • I use the original Alumium name.

If NZers do not want to work on farms, the farming industry needs to examine the working conditions. Why don’t people want to work in remote areas 6-7 days a week for crap pay? With no social life? Not to mention how difficult it is to farm and make a living with the milk price volatility for Farmers that own their own farm - could be a reason they are not able to offer workers better pay rates.

New Zealanders do want to pick fruit the issue is it’s a seasonal job, people want stability. The industry knows this and they are focusing on helping workers gain more skills and move up into orchard managerial positions.
The other issue is transport, they need to make it easier for workers to get to and from the orchards, the commute for a low paying job can be a real disincentive, especially with our high petrol prices.

Some transitional immigrant work force is required and needed.
We don’t have major immigration problem, yet. However we could easily go the way of UK.
Many immigrants only use nz citizenship and a way to get into australia. They come here, then vanish across the ditch, with all their so called skills.

The UK also have a major issue with generations on the benefit - not prepared to work.
I’d like to see some partial work for the benefit in new zealand.
Where instead of doing ‘job search’, they work part time for 3 days, weed clearing on farms, road side weed management, grafitti removal, scrapping/recycling centre, etc
They are picked up from a designated point (transport not an issue), their work monitored, and they get a reference. This gets them into work, ready for work, tested for work, they get feedback on problems - punctuality, sobriety, workplace relations. If their are problems they, can be sorted out. Then they search for work themselves, though they are given help, and courses, as is currently done.
Currently WINZ just wants everyone off their books (looks bad for the government books) and they put people into low skilled jobs, that they don’t necessarily want to do. I’d like to see a lot more help with getting people into a career and giving them training and more follow up.

I think manuka honey is not the best value added product, but other products; manuka honey yogurt face mask :mask:, manuka oil, bee propolis, wax pellets, pollen etc - these health supplements are of high value and very popular with large consumer markets (eg China).
Many of the specialist (wood carving) could be centred in rural towns that are dying - to revitalise them, but also create a tourism draw. Learn carving and/or maori traditional carving etc.

Here is a great story from the far north - they need more commerce.
Why don’t we have more summer touristy holiday destinations up there? The beaches are fantastic, the summers are hotter, and less humid than northland (due to less rainfall).

@Lammerlaw have to agree.
After living in Auckland for 15 years, I could no longer afford the ridiculous rental rates.
That is a major factor too, in addition to the speculative housing market.
Though I do not feel this is solely caused by immigrants, they do play a large factor.
Many buyers are brain drainers that are returning home with high value foreign currency, they are happy to speculate also. Property is an obsession for nzers, and our houses are not high quality (old uninsulated).

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Ill wrap this reply from your last 2 posts. Here goes:

The Rothschilds- I thought you might bring them into this debate. The truth of the matter is yes they are a wealthy Jewish family. They invested heavily in government bonds and they continue to be wealthy although in the later half of last century they took more of a sideline approach.
I’ve heard this conspiracy theory about this family and how the Jews control the worlds financial system and all that BS. The reality is that yes Jews are prominent in finance but that’s because of their history as a money lending institution during the middle ages. Why would they shit in their own nest to put it so bluntly if they were to reign in all this credit. Wouldn’t this create havoc for their own kind first and foremost. The truth of the matter is in order for a company, country, civilization or whatever to be prosperous we need one magic ingredient. It stems from economics 101 and that is stability. Stability is what drives prosperity. Look at the least prosperous nations what do you see- You see instability.

You say paper money can collapse and is created out of thin air and then you use an example of the US borrowing its money by printing more. You say nothing backs it up.

Well your wrong- Your wrong because the value of a countries money is based on a host of factors.Some of these are:
Its manufacturing ability and production
The value of its total assets such as infrastructure etc.
Its labor market and its ability to create productivity
Its financial assets
Its cross border trading etc

Therefore when you say money is created out of thin air thats right on a literal level however once again your not looking at the full picture. And that is it is underwritten by a host of other factors such as above that are used to come up with its value or purchasing power.

Your example of your family losing money in 1890 by the banks was over 120 years ago!. Since then the world is in a completely different place. We have a banking industry that is a lot more connected with the global economy and is highly regulated. We have this thing called financial modelling and economics that requires huge statistical computer power and large numbers of individuals who’s very livelihoods it is to ensure this system remains stable, predictable and offers economies and the banking sector with highly detailed information so they can then continue to operate. Why do they want it to succeed - once again it comes down to stability of the economic system. Does it work right all the time- Hell no but it works most of the time and more importantly it lends itself to being dynamic. This means if it makes a mistake economists pick it apart and research and figure out what went wrong and learn as a result this reduces the chance of the same or similar mistake happening again. That’s why I don’t buy your idea that its all going to turn to crap, and the international bankers are going to want their money etc blah blah.

NZ is not sinking into economic gloom- Wheres the evidence? We have one of the best performing economies in the OECD. We have one of the highest standards of living and we have a attitude whereby we punch above our weight on the international stage in terms of innovation amongst other things. One of the contributors here GoldPandemic has some great ideas in the post above ( manuka honey, carving, titanium sequestration a classic example of why we are innovators). Does this mean we don’t have issues. Hell no we have our issues around inequality, our mental health statistics, environmental issues, housing affordability etc

No my analogy is sound. The use of fractional banking allows banks to quickly liquidize money that has been deposited, meaning money for investment etc. Also fractional banking allows long term loans to be issued. This allows mortgage loans for your house lets say for up to long periods of time meaning the repayments for the loan are spread out thereby reducing the amount of up front capital needed to pay back the loan (although you end up paying more for this long term with interest). Fractional banking also allows superior control over influencing money supply and interest rates which allows an economy to create economic stability. The key here is this system needs to be well regulated by its central bank. The point im making is your disdain of fractional banking allows you to enjoy economic stability, a strong banking sector and long term loans ie your mortgage to name but a few. Quote " if you want the rainbow you gota put up with the rain"- Dolly Parton ( and some people thought she was just a big pair of tits)

Agree with what you said about Ngai Tahu. Very well managed and run. There are a lot of other tribes also doing well which is great for its people.

Your comments on the housing costs in Auckland are high I agree with however I believe this could be better managed without turning immigration off. There are other economic and regulatory tools that can better manage some of the issues you raise. When it comes to immigration I see that its about targeting the right immigrants for positions that we as a country need not some blanket let everyone in approach.

Kind Regards

I’m only for rebalancing immigration. So that character checks are more thorough, and we don’t just let in wealthy people that can buy everything up, nor a large group of a single culture. For true “cultural diversity” we need an even balance of different immigrants, slowly coming in, so they can get used to us, and we to them.

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You analogy re Fractional Reserve Banking is not fine - would you wish to borrow your home loan money under fractional Reserve banking - I SHOULD THINK NOT!

It is under Fractional Reserve banking that NZ borrowed money to create the Welfare State - its GREAT for the bank and how banks work but it is NOT great to borrow money under it BECAUSE we pay back a great deal more than a straight loan such as your mortgage loan. Is New Zealand paying money back at 2 or 3 or 5 percent? I should think not.

Did I say Economic Gloom? - the economy might suit YOU but it is creating an Elitist Society with the filthy rich and the poor…and the gap forever widening.
Farms once economic cease to be so. The wealthier farmers buying out the neighbours. I duck shoot on ONE farm that in 1945 just happened to be five European farms plus 14 or more separate Maori owned blocks.

To Quote - 'You say paper money can collapse and is created out of thin air and then you use an example of the US borrowing its money by printing more. You say nothing backs it up.'Wrong - I did not say that. I said ‘Obama needed to borrow 700 Billion and so he prints bonds which give the Federal Reserve pro gratis permission to print money. Nothing backs it up.’ He authorised the printing of BONDS which give the authority for the Federal Bank to print the money - create the money - out of thin air. HE did not print more, nor did the Government - the privately owned Federal Reserve Bank printed it and thus were given permission to create money which had to be paid back. this effectively means that the only winner is the bank.Who owns that money - a private bank, the Federal Reserve! Money for nothing!

Your either a banker or or the Devils henchman if you think all this is good for New Zealand. Hey I dont mind because I dont live on the streets and am not poor destitute and starving!

How about paper money during the era of galloping inflation in Germany 1933 - the value of paper money collapsed then and the only ones who kept their heads above water were secure and had enough int he form of other assets to weather the storm or had GOLD and SILVER to back themselves up. - and your telling us that paper money is wonderful…it cannot collapse again??/ We shall see.

Gold Pandemic - If I was Prime Minister and Prich385 will think I would wreck the country I would restrict the new immigrants to a residential dwelling for their own use plus one investment property…Prich will give a reason he sees as valid for not agreeing but then again we can see what has happened on the North Shore when immigrants come here and are allowed to buy up properties wholesale - who profits? The Immigrant! Who suffers? The good honest Kiwi who wants a home for his family!

I only posted it as a tidbit of info - didn’t expect the handbags to come out again…

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Umm - My discussion re fractional reserve banking is valid and on point. You may not have realized but NZ monetary and banking system is a fractional reserve system. Therefore the money we borrow from a bank is money burrowed under fractional reserve banking Thats a fact!. Therefore im going to discount the first 2 paragraphs of your last post. Pays to check your facts.

Yeap you did say in post 12 [quote=“Lammerlaw, post:12, topic:1779”]
Paper money can collapse - it is surely manipulated. It is created out of thin air without anything to support it - Obama needed to borrow 700 Billion and so he prints bonds which give the Federal Reserve pro gratis permission to print money. Nothing backs it up
[/quote] - Therefore when you say im lying by misquoting you - once again pays to check the facts.

Moving forward and looking at my last reply I’ve said that the creation of paper money is under written by a host of factors that provides that money with value. Therefore when Obama borrowed $700 billion as you claim the value of that money was $700 billion. Your getting hung up on the money bit but the point im making is in the value of the money. Its irrelevant who owns the money. Money is just a standardized way of allowing trade between people. It must have a value otherwise it means nothing.

Yeap banks and governments create money all the time. In fact most money (80%) created in NZ is created by the commercial banks not the reserve bank.

If your going to use Germany as a example then that further reiterates what im saying. The value of money in Germany at that period in time was diminished. This was due to the things that add value to the value of money being reduced ie- reduced manufacturing base, low food production, low cross border trade, massive debt,etc I’m glad you used this as an example as it backs up what im saying and that is an unstable economy ( one ravaged by war in this example) creates a unstable economic base which results in the value of its money being less.

Nah im no banker would be one of the most boring jobs I could think of. Devils Henchman- nah sorry I don’t own a motor bike.

Kind regards

The money did not exist - Obama printed bonds to allow paper money to be printed or created which he in turn borrows on behalf of the people but which h as to be paid back - a bit like you or I giving something for what is to all practical purposes nothing. Who in the end wins? The bankers.
Yes we borrow money under fractional reserve banking YES it IS a fact BUT we pay it back at a fair interest rate in keeping with the economy of the day - we do not pay it back at an inflated rate which is what our country is doing.

What happened in Germany proves my point that paper money can be worthless while tangible assets like gold can ride the storm - it in fact negates the points you have made rather than support them, IF Germany had the gold/silver assets then it would not have collapsed.

Not stepping in, but recently watched this video that seems relevant…

Also a bunch of other videos in the series talking about other things like “fiat money” etc. that was quite interesting and worrying.

And like @KT_Pro says… put the handbags down and step away from them :stuck_out_tongue:

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